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Avodah Zarah 71

AVODAH ZARAH 69-71 - Three Dafim have been sponsored through the generous grant of an anonymous donor in Flatbush, NY.


(a) (Mishnah): If Yisraelim worked for a Nochri and he sent them Yayin Nesech in lieu of wages, they may ask for its value instead;
(b) Once they accepted the wine, it is forbidden (they may not ask for anything in place of it).
(c) Version #1 - Rashi - (Gemara - Rav Yehudah): Reuven may tell a Nochri 'Take care of my obligation to pay the king's tithe (on produce)' (even if the Nochri will give Yayin Nesech and Reuven will compensate him).
(d) Version #2 - Rambam - (Rav Yehudah): Reuven may tell a Nochri 'Take care of Manas ha'Melech (the king forces people to buy his extra wine) for me' (the Nochri buys Yayin Nesech, Reuven compensates him). (end of Version #2)
(e) Question (Beraisa): Reuven may not tell a Nochri 'Go in my place to (pay) the king's officer' (Rashi - the Nochri is Reuven's Shali'ach, it is as if Reuven pays his debt with Yayin Nesech; Rambam - it is as if Reuven sells the Yayin Nesech (which he must buy) to the Nochri).
(f) Answer (Rav): My case is different, it resembles the end of the Beraisa.
1. (Beraisa): Reuven may tell a Nochri 'Save me from the king's officer' (Rashi - the Nochri has many ways to appease him, he is not Reuven's Shali'ach to give Yayin Nesech; Tosfos - Reuven suggests appeasing him with anything, therefore it is permitted, even if the official insists on wine; Rambam - the Nochri buys the wine for himself).
(a) (Mishnah): If a Yisrael sells wine to a Nochri:
1. If he was Posek (fixed the price) before he measured out the wine, the money is permitted;
2. If he measured out the wine before he was Posek, the money is forbidden (it is given for Yayin Nesech).
(b) (Gemara - Ameimar): A Nochri does acquire through Meshichah.
(c) Version #1 - Support: Persians send gifts to each other, and do not retract.
(d) Version #2 - Support: Persian grain sellers send samples to prospective buyers, if the buyer wants to keep (buy) the sample, the seller allows him to, even though money was not given yet. (End of Version #2)
(e) Rejection (Rav Ashi): Really, Nochrim do not acquire through Meshichah;
1. They do not retract because they are haughty.
(f) Support (Rav Ashi, for himself): I learn from Rav.
1. Rav (to Yisrael wine sellers): When you sell to Nochrim, take the money before you measure out the wine;
i. If the buyers do not have money, lend them the money, take the money before you measure out the wine, and later collect the loan.
ii. If you will not do so, your wine will become Yayin Nesech while it still belongs to you, it is forbidden to take money for Yayin Nesech.
2. (Rav Ashi): If you will say that a Nochri acquires through Meshichah, he acquires when it is measured, it is not yet Yayin Nesech (until he touches it)!

(g) Rejection: If the Yisraelim would measure the wine into their own vessels, this would be a good support;
1. Rather, the Yisraelim would measure into vessels of Nochrim, the wine becomes Yayin Nesech once it enters the vessels (and mixes with residues of Yayin Nesech).
(h) Defense (of Rav Ashi): If Nochrim acquire through Meshichah, he would acquire once the wine enters the airspace of his vessel, it is not Yayin Nesech until it reaches the bottom (and mixes with residues of Yayin Nesech)!
(i) Inference: The opinion that rejected Rav Ashi's support holds that Nitzuk (a liquid flowing through the air) is considered connected (therefore, the entire stream of wine is Yayin Nesech, even what is above the vessel).
(j) Rejection: If the Nochri was holding his vessel in his hands, this would be a valid inference;
1. However, the case is, the vessel rests on the ground (therefore, he does not acquire until he picks it up (after it is full), it is already Yayin Nesech).
(k) Question: Why doesn't the Nochri's vessel acquire for him?
1. Inference: We must say, the buyer's vessels do not acquire in the owner's premises!
(l) Answer (and Rejection): No, perhaps they do acquire;
1. The case is, a drop of the Nochri's wine remained on the lip of his vessel - the Yisrael's wine mixes with this and becomes forbidden before it enters the vessel itself.
(m) Question: This is not like R. Shimon ben Gamliel, who says that (if Kosher wine was mixed with Yayin Nesech) one may sell the mixture, but he may take money only for the (amount of) Kosher wine. (But the Halachah follows R. Shimon ben Gamliel!)
(n) Answer: We are explaining Rav - Rav says that the Halachah follows R. Shimon ben Gamliel only when barrels of Kosher wine were mixed with barrels of Yayin Nesech, but not if the wine itself mixed (for then all the wine absorbs the Yayin Nesech).
(a) Question (against Ameimar - Beraisa): A Yisrael bought scrap metal from a Nochri, and found idolatry among it:
1. If he did Meshichah but did not yet give the money, he can return it (it was a mistaken sale);
2. If he did Meshichah after giving the money, he must cast the idolatry to the Dead Sea.
3. If Nochrim acquire through Meshichah (and Yisraelim acquire from them with Meshichah), why may he return the idolatry (in the first clause) - he acquired it (and owes its value - by returning it, he is selling it back or paying his debt with it)!
(b) Answer #1 (Abaye): In the first clause it is a mistaken sale (he never intended to buy idolatry, he never acquired it). (This is the text in Bechoros, Rava's response shows also here it is the correct text - Toras Chayim.)
(c) Objection (Rava): Also in the second clause, it is a mistaken sale, there he may not return it!
(d) Answer #2 (Rava): In both clauses it is a mistaken sale;
1. In the first clause, he did not give money, it looks like a mistaken sale;
2. In the second clause, he gave money, it *looks like* he bought it, he may not return it on account of Mar'is Ayin.
(e) Question (against Rav Ashi - Mar Kashisha brei d'Rav Chisda - Mishnah): If a Yisrael sells wine to a Nochri:
1. If he Pasak before measuring out the wine, the money is permitted;
2. If Meshichah does not acquire (for a Nochri), the money should be forbidden (it becomes Yayin Nesech while it still belongs to the Yisrael)!
(f) Answer (Rav Ashi): The case is, the Nochri gave (more than enough) money for the wine beforehand (his money acquires for him before it becomes Yayin Nesech).
(g) Question (Mar Kashisha brei d'Rav Chisda): If so, also in the end of the Mishnah (he measured out the wine before he Pasak) the money should be permitted!
1. Counter-question (Rav Ashi): You say that Meshichah acquires - why is the law different in the two clauses?
2. Answer (Rav Ashi): You must say, before Pesikah, he is not sure he wants to buy, he does not acquire;
(h) Answer (Rav Ashi): Also I explain the difference between the clauses in this way!
(i) Question (against Rav Ashi - Ravina - R. Chiya bar Aba): A Ben No'ach is killed for stealing less than a Perutah (from a Yisrael), he need not return it (because a Yisrael pardons such a small amount).
1. If he does not acquire with Meshichah, why is he killed (what he stole is not considered money, and he did not even acquire it)!
(j) Answer (Rav Ashi): He is killed because he pained a Yisrael.
(k) Version #1 - Rashi - Question: Since it says 'he need not *return* it', this implies that he acquired it!
(l) Answer: It means that he *cannot* return it, i.e. he did not acquire it.
(m) Version #2 - Tosfos - Question: If (it is not considered theft, rather) he is killed for paining a Yisrael, obviously he need not return it (why must R. Chiya teach this)?
(n) Answer: Indeed, this comes to teach that it is not considered theft. (End of Version #2)
(o) (R. Chiya bar Aba): If another Nochri stole it from the first, he is (also) killed.
1. We understand, the first is killed for paining a Yisrael - but why is the second killed?
(p) Conclusion: We must say, a Nochri acquires through Meshichah.
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