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Chulin 90

CHULIN 86-90 - Sponsored by a generous grant from an anonymous donor. Kollel Iyun Hadaf is indebted to him for his encouragement and support and prays that Hashem will repay him in kind.


(a) Question: R. Yehudah is the Tana who considers this to be a stringency, but our Mishnah is not like R. Yehudah!
1. Our Mishnah forbids the right and left Gidin - R. Yehudah forbids only one!
(b) Answer: Our Tana holds like R. Yehudah that Gid ha'Nasheh is a severe Isur, but he forbids both Gidim like Chachamim.
(c) Objection: R. Yehudah said that Gid ha'Nasheh is severe and is Chal on the Isur of a Tamei animal, which is a regular Lav - we have no source that it is Chal on Kodshim!
1. Kodshim is severe, it entails Kares (if a Tamei person ate Kodshim, or one who eats Pigul or Nosar.)
(d) Answer #3: Our Mishnah teaches that Gid ha'Nasheh applies to a Bechor (firstborn, it becomes Kodesh when it leaves the womb, and the Gid is already forbidden.)
(e) Answer #4: Our Tana holds that the offspring of Kodshim become Kodesh when they leave the womb.
(a) (R. Chiya bar Yosef): The Mishnah says that Gid ha'Nasheh applies to Kodshim - this only applies to Kodshim that are eaten, not to those that are not (e.g. Olah.)
(b) (R. Yochanan): It applies to both kinds of Kodshim.
(c) (Rav Papa): They do not argue, they discuss different matters:
1. Version #1: R. Yochanan is Mechayav lashes for eating the Gid of either type of Kodshim;
2. R. Chiya bar Yosef teaches that the Gid is offered (left in the thigh of an Olah, it is burned) on the Mizbe'ach,
3. Version #2: R. Chiya bar Yosef teaches that the Gid need not be removed from an Olah;
4. R. Yochanan teaches that if the Gid was removed, it may not be offered.
(d) (Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak): They argue about offering the Gid on the Mizbe'ach.
1. (Beraisa): "V'Hiktir ha'Kohen Es ha'Kol ha'Mizbechah" - this includes bones, Gidim, horns and hoofs;
2. Suggestion: Perhaps they are offered even if they separated from the meat!
3. Rejection: "V'Asisa Olosecha ha'Basar veha'Dam" (only blood and meat).
4. Suggestion: Perhaps we must remove the Gidim and bones!
5. Rejection: "V'Hiktir ha'Kohen Es ha'Kol".
6. Resolution: He burns them if they are attached; if they became separated, even on top of the Mizbe'ach, they are brought down.
(e) This is like Rebbi:
1. (Beraisa): "V'Hiktir ha'Kohen Es ha'Kol ha'Mizbechah" - this includes bones, Gidim, horns and hooves, even if they separated.
2. Question: What do we learn from "V'Asisa Olosecha ha'Basar veha'Dam"?
3. Answer: It teaches about things that fly off the Mizbe'ach when being burned:
i. If meat comes off, we return it; if bones and Gidim come off, we don't return them.
4. Rebbi: One verse teaches that we burn everything, another says only blood and meat!
i. Resolution: We burn everything that is attached; what separated, even on the Mizbe'ach, is brought down.
5. Chachamim: The verse need not teach that they are offered when attached - we learn from the head, it has many bones, it is offered whole!
i. The verse teaches that even if they separated, they are offered.
6. Rebbi: We only learn from the head that things permitted (to Yisraelim) are offered when attached;
i. The verse teaches that the Gid ha'Nasheh is offered when attached.

7. Chachamim: "Mi'Mashke Yisrael" - only things permitted to Yisrael are offered.
8. Rebbi: Blood and Chelev are offered, even though they are forbidden to Yisrael!
9. Chachamim: They are the primary things offered, we cannot learn to other forbidden parts of the animal.
(f) (Rav Huna): The thigh of an Olah is taken up the ramp whole; on top, the Gid ha'Nasheh is removed and thrown onto the ash-heap.
(g) (Rav Chisda): *Benei Yisrael* are forbidden to eat the Gid ha'Nasheh, the Mizbe'ach may consume it!
1. Rav Huna learns from "Mi'Mashke Yisrael".
(h) Question (Beraisa): The Gid ha'Nasheh of a Shelamim is swept into the Amah (a channel that flows through the Azarah), an Olah's Gid is brought up.
1. Suggestion: It is brought up and burned on the Mizbe'ach.
(i) Answer: No, it is brought up (the ramp) and removed.
(j) Question: If so, why do we bring it up?
(k) Answer: It is not nice to bring up a thigh from which the Gid has been removed.
(l) Support (for Rav Huna - Beraisa): The Gid ha'Nasheh of a Shelamim is swept into the Amah; an Olah's Gid is removed and thrown onto the ash-heap.
(a) (Mishnah): The ash-heap was in the middle of the Mizbe'ach; sometimes, there would be 300 Kor (about 10,000 liters) of ashes.
(b) (Rava): This is an exaggeration.
(c) (Mishnah): They would give the Korban Tamid to drink from a gold cup before slaughtering it.
(d) (Rava): This is an exaggeration.
(e) (R. Ami): The Torah, prophets, and Chachamim all exaggerate:
1. Chachamim exaggerate in the above examples;
2. The Torah exaggerates - "Great cities, fortified up to Heaven".
3. The Nevi'im exaggerate - "The land cleaved from their voices".
(f) (R. Yitzchak bar Nachmani): Chachamim exaggerated in three places - the ash-heap (above), the golden vine, and the Paroches (curtain in the Mikdash.)
1. (Mishnah): There was a golden vine on the entrance to the Heichal, supported by poles; if someone donated a grape or cluster (of gold), it would be hung on the vine;
i. R. Eliezer b'Rebbi Tzadok says, 300 Kohanim were needed to move it.
2. (Mishnah - R. Shimon ben Gamliel): The Paroches was one Tefach thick; it was made of 72 Nirim (a Nir is a thread with a ring through which warp threads pass); each strand was made of 24 threads;
i. It was 40 Amos long, 20 Amos wide, it was made from 82,000 threads (some say 82,000 weavers);
ii. Every year, two were made; 300 Kohanim were needed to immerse it.
(a) (Mishnah): The Gidin of both thighs are forbidden.
(b) Our Mishnah is not like R. Yehudah.
1. (Beraisa - R. Yehudah): Only one of them is forbidden - Da'as (understanding) dictates, it is the right Gid.
(c) Question: Did R. Yehudah reach a sure verdict?
1. The 'Da'as' he refers to is the Torah;
2. Or - was he unsure, and said that Da'as *leans* to say it is the right Gid?
(d) Answer #1 (Beraisa): Bones, Gidim and Nosar (what was left over until morning) of the Korban Pesach are burned on the 16th of Nisan.
1. Question: What is the case of Gidim?
i. If they are edible Gidim, they should be eaten, not burned!
ii. They cannot be Nosar, for Nosar is listed separately!
2. Answer #1: They are Gidim of the neck (which are generally too hard to eat.)
i. Objection: If they are not considered meat (rather, bone), they can be discarded, why must they be burned?
3. Answer #2 (Rav Chisda): The Beraisa discusses the Gid ha'Nasheh, according to R. Yehudah.
i. If he was unsure which is forbidden, we understand this - because of the doubt, neither Gid is eaten, both must be burned.
ii. (Culmination of answer (d)): If he was sure that the right Gid is forbidden, it can be
discarded, and the left Gid should be eaten!
(e) Rejection #1: (Rav Ika bar Chanina): Really, he is sure; the case is, the two Gidim got mixed up, so they must be burned.
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