POINT BY POINT SUMMARY
Prepared by Rabbi P. Feldman
of Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Yerushalayim
Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
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Previous daf Menachos 11
MENACHOS 11 (21 Tishrei, Hoshana Raba) - dedicated by Gedalyah Jawitz of
Wantagh, N.Y., honoring the Yahrtzeit of his father, Yehuda ben Simcha Volf
1) A "KOMETZ" THAT IS TOO BIG OR TOO SMALL
(a) (Mishnah): If the Kometz included a pebble, grain of
salt, or grain of Levonah, it is Pasul.
2) HOW "KEMITZAH" IS DONE
(b) Question: Why must all of these be taught?
(c) Answer: All three cases are needed:
1. If it only taught a pebble, one might have thought
that this is Posel for pebbles are not offered, but
salt is offered, so it is not Posel;
(d) (Mishnah): This is because a Kometz that is too big or
Chaser is Pasul.
2. If it only taught salt, one might have thought that
this is Posel for it was not originally part of the
Minchah, but Levonah was part of the Minchah, so it
is not Posel;
3. The Mishnah teaches that even Levonah is Posel.
(e) Question: Even if it was not (too big or) Chaser, it
would be Pasul, for it is a Chatzizah (between the Kometz
and his hand - alternatively, it divides the Kometz
(f) Answer (R. Yirmeyah): The Mishnah must teach about when
it is at the side (it is not a Chatzizah.)
(a) Question (Abaye): How is Kemitzah done?
3) EXTRA OR MISSING OIL OR "LEVONAH"
(b) Answer (Rava): The way people normally do this (with all
(c) Question (Beraisa): (Each finger is needed for Kodshim -)
the pinky for the Zeres (the measure of the Choshen), the
ring finger (is the *first finger used for Kemitzah*),
the middle finger (for the measure of an Amah), the index
finger (for Haza'as Dam), the thumb (for Matanos Dam and
oil on a Metzora.)
(d) Answer (Rava): When I said that all the fingers are used,
I did not mean that they all hold flour - the pinky and
thumb only wipe away excess sticking out of the middle
(e) Question: How does the ring finger begin Kemitzah?
(f) Answer (Mar Zutra bar Tuvya): He bends back the middle
three fingers until the palm, taking the flour inside.
(g) Support (Beraisa) Suggestion: "*Melo* (full) Kumtzo" -
perhaps it should be overflowing!
1. Rejection: "B'Kumtzo" (it must be inside his hand).
(h) (Rav Papa): It is obvious to me that Kemitzah may be done
the way people normally do this (with Chulin, they stick
their fingers in from the side and press the flour in);
2. Suggestion: "B'Kumtzo" - perhaps he should curl the
3. Rejection: "Melo Kumtzo".
4. Resolution: He bends back the middle three fingers
until the palm, taking the flour inside.
5. In Minchas Machavas or Marcheshes, he wipes away the
excess using the pinky and thumb - this is *the*
hard Avodah in the Mikdash!
6. Question: Is this really the hardest? Also Melikah
and pouring the incense from the pan onto the coals
(on Yom Kipur) are hard Avodos!
7. Correction: Rather, this is *one of the* hardest
Avodos in the Mikdash.
(i) Questions (Rav Papa): May one insert the fingertips and
bend them back (to his palm, which is facing down?) May
Kemitzah be done from the side (of the Kli? Alternatively
- he puts the back of the hand into the flour, and moves
it sideways so flour enters inside.) May it be done from
below to above? (Rashi - he inserts the fingertips and
bends them back to his palm, which is facing up; Tosfos -
he inserts the palm and bends his hand, until it closes.)
(j) These questions are not resolved.
(k) (Rav Papa): It is obvious to me that Chafinah (filling
the hands with Ketores on Yom Kipur) may be done the way
people normally do this (with Chulin, they stick their
hands in from two sides and bring them together);
(l) Questions (Rav Papa): May one insert the fingertips to
take the (double) handful? May Chafinah be done from the
side (of the Kli? Alternatively - he allows the Ketores
to enter his hand from between his fingers.) If he took
each handful by itself and brought his hands together, is
(m) These questions are not resolved.
(n) Questions (Rav Papa): If he stuck the Kometz on the wall
of the (second) Kli, does this Mekadesh it?
1. If we only require the inside of the Kli, it is
(o) This question is not resolved.
2. If Hanachah (placing it in the Kli) is required,
this is not considered Hanachah.
(p) Question (Mar bar Rav Ashi): If he turned the Kli upside
down and stuck the Kometz in (a pocket in) the bottom of
the Kli, does this Mekadesh it?
1. If we only require Hanachah inside the Kli, it is
(q) This question is not resolved.
2. If it must be done normally, it is invalid.
(a) (Mishnah) Question: How is Kemitzah done?
(b) Answer: He bends back the middle three fingers until the
(c) If its (the Minchah's) oil is too much or Chaser, or if
its Levonah is Chaser, it is Pasul.
(d) (Gemara) Question: What is the case of taking too much
(e) Answer (R. Elazar): He designated two Lugim (instead of
(f) Question: Why didn't he say that he mixed in oil of
Chulin or of another Minchah?
1. Suggestion: Mixing in oil of Chulin or of another
Minchah is not Posel.
(g) Answer (R. Elazar): It is a bigger Chidush when he
designated two Lugim:
2. Rejection (Rav Zutra bar Tuvya): If so, too much oil
could not Posel Minchas Chotei (but we know that it
i. It does not have any oil of its own, and the
suggestion was that oil of Chulin or of another
Minchah is not Posel!
1. Not only oil of Chulin or of another Minchah is
Posel, but even if he designated two Lugim, and each
is fitting for the Minchah, it is Posel.
(h) Question: What is R. Elazar's source for this?
(i) Answer (Rava): A difficulty in the Mishnah forced him to
1. Question: It should have said 'If there is too much
oil' - why did it say 'If *its* oil is too much'?
(j) (Mishnah): If its Levonah is Chaser (it is Pasul.)
2. Answer: This teaches that even if the oil designated
for it was too much, i.e. he designated two Lugim,
it is Pasul.
(k) (Beraisa #1 - R. Yehudah): If the Levonah became Chaser
and only one grain of Levonah remains, it is Pasul; if
two grains remain, it is Kosher;
(l) R. Shimon says, if one grain remains, it is Kosher; if
less remains, it is Pasul.
(m) Contradiction (Beraisa #2): If any of the Kometz or
Levonah is missing, it is Pasul. (This is not like either
4) "LEVONAH" BROUGHT WITHOUT A "MINCHAH"
(n) Answer #1: Beraisa #2 should say 'If any of the Koret of
Levonah is missing (i.e. less than one grain remains), it
(o) Answer #2: Beraisa #1 discusses Levonah brought with a
Minchah, Beraisa #2 discusses Levonah brought by itself
for a Korban.
(p) Answer #3 (R. Yitzchak bar Yosef): Beraisa #2 is like R.
Meir (the Tana of our Stam Mishnah), he argues with R.
Yehudah and R. Shimon:
1. All agree that initially, a Kometz of Levonah is
(q) (R. Yitzchak bar Yosef): They argue about Levonah brought
with a Minchah, but all agree that when Levonah is
brought by itself, a Kometz must be brought and remain;
2. R. Meir holds that a Kometz of Levonah must remain,
R. Yehudah holds that two grains must remain, R.
Shimon holds that one grain must remain.
3. All expound the same verse - "V'Es *Kol* ha'Levonah
Asher Al ha'Minchah":
i. R. Meir says, all the Levonah that was fixed
(required) from the beginning must remain;
ii. R. Yehudah says, "Kol" teaches that it suffices
for one grain to remain, "V'Es" requires a
iii. R. Shimon expounds "Kol" the same way, but he
does not expound "V'Es".
i. R. Yehudah and R. Shimon learn from "Asher Al
ha'Minchah" - this law (that it suffices for
one or two grains to remain) only applies to
Levonah that accompanies a Minchah.
(a) (R. Yitzchak bar Yosef): They argue about Levonah brought
with a Minchah, but all agree that Lechem ha'Panim must
be accompanied by two Komotzim, and two Komotzim must
5) DIFFERENT INTENTIONS
(b) Objection: This is obvious! (A Mishnah (106B) teaches
that two Komotzim are required; the source to Machshir
when less remains was "Kol" - this was said only
regarding Levonah with a Minchah.)
(c) Answer: One might have thought, since they are brought
with the Lechem ha'Panim, they are like Levonah brought
with a Minchah - R. Yitzchak teaches, this is not so
(d) (R. Ami or R. Yitzchak Nafcha): They argue about Levonah
brought with a Minchah, but all agree that when Levonah
is brought by itself, a Kometz must be brought and
(e) (The other of R. Ami and R. Yitzchak Nafcha): They argue
about both of these.
(f) (Mishnah): If its Levonah is Chaser, it is Pasul.
(g) Inference: If there is too much Levonah, it is Kosher!
(h) Contradiction (Beraisa): If there is too much Levonah, it
(i) Version #1 - Answer (Rami bar Chama): In the Beraisa, he
designated two Komtzim (this is too much, it is Posel.)
(j) Version #2 - Answer (Rami bar Chama): In the Mishnah, he
designated two Komtzim (neither is Nikva (determined)
that it must be brought with it, it is Kosher.)
(k) (Rami bar Chama): If he designated two Komtzim and one
was lost before Kemitzah, they were not Nikva'im (it is
not considered Chaser, it is Kosher);
1. If one was lost after Kemitzah, they were Nikva'im
(it is Chaser, it is Pasul).
(l) (Rami bar Chama): If four Komtzim were designated for
Lechem ha'Panim, two for each pan, and two were lost
before the Levonah was removed, they were not Nikva'im
(it is Kosher);
1. If they were lost after removing the Levonah, they
were Nikva'im (it is Pasul).
(m) Question: Why must this be taught - it follows from the
(n) Answer: One might have thought, since the Levonah is
clearly distinct from the Lechem ha'Panim, once it is
time to remove it, it is as if was removed - Rami
teaches, this is not so.
(a) (Mishnah): In the following cases, a Minchah is Pasul,
there is no Kares (for eating the Shirayim):
1. Kemitzah was done with intent to eat the Shirayim or
a k'Zayis of the Shirayim Chutz (li'Mkomo, i.e.
outside the Azarah), or Lehaktir its Kometz or a
k'Zayis of its Kometz b'Chutz, or Lehaktir the
(b) If he intended to eat the Shirayim or a k'Zayis of the
Shirayim on the morrow, or Lehaktir on the morrow its
Kometz, a k'Zayis of its Kometz, or the Levonah, it is
Pigul, there is Kares.