POINT BY POINT SUMMARY
Prepared by Rabbi P. Feldman
of Kollel Iyun Hadaf, Yerushalayim
Rosh Kollel: Rabbi Mordecai Kornfeld
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Previous daf Menachos 79
1) IS AN INVALID SLAUGHTER "MEKADESH" THE BREAD? (cont.)
(a) (Gemara) Question: Who is the Tana of the Mishnah?
2) SLAUGHTER IS "MEKADESH" THE "NESACHIM"
(b) Answer: It is R. Meir:
(c) (Beraisa - R. Meir): The general rule is, if any Pesul
occurred before slaughter, the bread is not Kadosh; if a
Pesul occurred after slaughter, it is Kadosh;
(d) If it was slaughtered Chutz li'Zmano or Chutz li'Mkomo,
the bread becomes Kadosh; if it was slaughtered and found
to be Treifah, the bread is not Kadosh.
1. R. Eliezer says, if it was slaughtered and found to
be a Ba'al Mum, the bread is Kadosh;
(e) R. Yehudah: R. Eliezer and R. Yehoshua agree that if it
was slaughtered and found to be Treifah or Ba'al Mum, the
bread is not Kadosh; if it was slaughtered Chutz
li'Zmano, the bread is Kadosh;
2. R. Yehoshua says, it is not Kadosh.
1. They argue about Chutz li'Mkomo - R. Eliezer says
that the bread becomes Kadosh; R. Yehoshua says that
it does not.
(f) Question: Why does (R. Eliezer, according to) R. Meir
consider Treifah to be a Pesul before slaughter (the
bread is not Kadosh), and Ba'al Mum to be a Pesul after
slaughter (the bread is Kadosh)?
2. R. Eliezer: Chutz li'Zmano and Chutz li'Mkomo are
both Pesulim - just like the former is Mekadesh the
bread, also the latter;
3. R. Yehoshua: Chutz li'Mkomo and Ba'al Mum are both
Pesulim - just like the latter is not Mekadesh the
bread, also the former.
4. R. Eliezer: Chutz li'Mkomo is more similar to Chutz
li'Zmano, for these Pesulim are on account of
intent, a Mum is a physical Pesul.
5. R. Yehoshua: No, Chutz li'Mkomo is more similar to a
Mum, for these Pesulim do not have Kares, but Chutz
li'Zmano has Kares;
i. Moreover, we can learn Chutz li'Mkomo from Lo
Lishmah, which is also Pasul on account of
intent, and it does not have Kares!
6. R. Eliezer did not respond.
(g) Answer: The Mum is Dukin (a film) in the eye, according
to R. Akiva, who says Im Alah Lo Yered (if such a Ba'al
Mum was brought on the Mizbe'ach, it is offered, it is
not taken down.)
1. R. Yehoshua argues - granted, the animal itself is
not taken down, but it is not Mekadesh bread.
(h) If a Chatas (R. Tam - Todah, the same applies to all
Kodshim Kalim) was slaughtered Chutz li'Zmano, Im Alah Lo
(i) (Rabah (we adopt the text of Rashi Kesav Yad and Shitah -
Rabah preceded Rava, presumably his opinion is given
first)): if it was slaughtered Chutz li'Mkomo, Yered;
(j) (Rava): Lo Yered.
(k) Rabah holds like R. Yehoshua, Rava holds like R. Eliezer.
(l) Version #1: Rava retracted and adopted Rabah's opinion,
for R. Eliezer retracted and adopted R. Yehoshua's
(m) Version #2: Even though R. Eliezer retracted, Rava did
1. R. Eliezer retracted because Chutz li'Mkomo is more
similar to Lo Lishmah (the bread is not Kadosh);
(n) (Mishnah): If it was slaughtered Lo Lishmah...
2. Regarding the Korban itself, even if we learn from
Lo Lishmah, (even though Chatas Lo Lishmah is
Pasul,) Lo Yered (since some Korbanos are Kosher Lo
(o) Question (Rav Papa): Why does our Tana teach about the
Milu'im (which do not apply to all generations) and omit
Ayil Nazir, which applies to all generations?
(p) Answer: Our Tana teaches about the first Korban (Rashi -
that was Mekadesh bread.) (Other Korbanos can be learned
(a) (Mishnah): If Nesachim were Mekudash in a Kli and the
Zevach was found to be Pasul:
1. If there is another Zevach without Nesachim, these
are offered for that Zevach;
(b) (Gemara - Ze'iri): Slaughter of the Zevach is the only
thing that is Mekadesh Nesachim (Rashi - to become
Nifsalim through Linah or Yotzei; Tosfos - to obligate
them to be brought with a particular Zevach) - we learn
from "Zevach u'Nesachim".
2. If not, we allow them to become Pasul through Linah.
(c) Question (Mishnah): If Nesachim were Mekudash in a Kli
and the Zevach was found to be Pasul:
1. If there is another Zevach without Nesachim, these
are offered for it; if not, they become Pasul
(d) Answer: No, the Zevach became Pasul through Zerikah
(slaughter was Kosher, it was Mekadesh the Nesachim.)
2. Suggestion: The Zevach became Pasul through
slaughter. (This shows that Nesachim become Mekudash
without (a Kosher) slaughter!)
(e) Suggestion: This is like Rebbi, who says that if one of
two Matirim were offered, it is partially Mekadesh.
(f) Rejection: It is even like R. Elazar b'Rebbi Shimon (who
says that one of two Matirim does not Mekadesh at all) -
the case is, Kabalas ha'Dam was Kosher, then the blood
3) WHEN "NESACHIM" MAY BE OFFERED WITH ANOTHER "ZEVACH"
1. R. Elazar holds like his father, who says that since
the blood was ready for Zerikah, (in some respects)
it is as if Zerikah was done.
(a) (Mishnah): If there is another Zevach without Nesachim,
these are offered for it.
4) "KORBANOS" ON ACCOUNT OF "TODAH"
(b) Question But Rav Chisda taught that if oil was designated
for a Minchah, it may not be used for another Minchah!
(c) Answer (R. Yanai): Beis Din (of Kohanim) stipulate that
Nesachim (for Korbanos Tzibur) are Kodesh on condition
that if they are not needed, they may be used for a
(d) Question: If so, they should also stipulate about oil!
(e) Answer: Oil is different, it is part of the Minchah
itself (therefore, it would not help to stipulate.)
(f) Question: (The Mishnah says, if there is not another
Zevach without Nesachim, they become Pasul through Linah
-) they should stipulate, if the Nesachim are not needed,
they are Chulin!
(g) Answer: We decreed not to do so, lest people think that
something that was in a Kli Shares remains Chulin
(h) Question: We should decree not to use Nesachim for a
different Zevach, lest people think that this may be done
(i) Answer: Matisyahu ben Yehudah taught, the case is, there
was another Zevach (without Nesachim) slaughtered at the
time (people will think that the Nesachim were for that
Zevach from the beginning.)
(j) Question - Inference: If there was not another Zevach
slaughtered at the time, the Nesachim are Pesulim;
1. Why does the Mishnah say, if there was no other
Zevach, the Nesachim are Pesulim - it should say, if
there was no other Zevach slaughtered at the time,
they are Pesulim!
(k) Answer: Indeed, the Mishnah means this;
1. If there was another Zevach slaughtered at the time,
the Nesachim are offered with it; if not, it is as
if they became Pesulim through Linah.
(l) Question: R. Shimon does not say that Beis Din
1. (Rav Idi bar Avin): According to R. Shimon, Temidim
which will not be needed this year cannot be
redeemed (in order to buy them back with next year's
Shekalim to use for Temidim of next year) without a
(m) Answer: He holds that Beis Din stipulates only when there
is no other solution. (There, without stipulating, the
extra Temidim Ro'im (graze until they get a Mum, then
they are redeemed).)
2. Chachamim permit redeeming without a blemish
(because Beis Din stipulated!)
(a) (Mishnah): The following are offered without bread:
1. Vlad (the child of a) Todah, Temuras Todah, Chalifas
Todah (an animal designated to replace a lost Todah,
after the Todah was found and offered.)
(b) We learn from "V'Hikriv Al Zevach Todah" - Todah requires
bread, not its child, Temurah or Chalifah.
(c) (Gemara - Beraisa) Question: Why does it say "Todah
1. Answer - Question: What is the source that if a
Todah was lost, a replacement was designated, and
the Todah was found, either may be offered l'Shem
Todah with bread?
2. Answer: 'Ha'Todah Yakriv'.
3. Suggestion: Perhaps the second animal to be offered
also requires bread!
4. Rejection: "Yakrivenu" - only one requires bread.
i. After the Torah permitted (offering either
l'Shem Todah), it excluded (bringing bread with
the other.) (This is according to the text of
Rashi and R. Gershom, there is no 'Vov' before
5. Question: What is the source that Vlad, Chalifas and
Temuras Todah are offered? (Really, we only ask
about Vlad and Temurah - the source for Chalifah was
given above, Chalifah is merely mentioned along with
6. Answer: "Im Al Todah".
7. Suggestion: Perhaps they require bread!
8. Rejection: "V'Hikriv Al Zevach ha'Todah" - Todah
requires bread, not its Vlad, Chalifah or Temurah.